Opened 9 years ago

Closed 8 years ago

## #2854 closed defect (worksforme)

# results in winGRASS7 32bit vs 64bit: should they be identical?

Reported by: | hellik | Owned by: | |
---|---|---|---|

Priority: | normal | Milestone: | 7.0.5 |

Component: | Raster | Version: | svn-releasebranch70 |

Keywords: | Cc: | ||

CPU: | x86-64 | Platform: | MSWindows 7 |

## Description

taken from the dev ML [1]:

>>Like this you check if the difference is very small and below the >>acceptable threshold. >>In C, we use GRASS_EPSILON for these comparisons. > > now done with GRASS_EPSILON 1.0e-15 > > r.mapcalc expression=difftestepsilon = if( abs( accum32bit at accumtest - > accum64bit at accumtest) <= 1.0e-15, 1 , 100 ) > > attached a screenshot of this map > > accum_diff_wingrass32bitvs64bit.png > <http://osgeo-org.1560.x6.nabble.com/file/n5243286/accum_diff_wingrass32bitvs64bit.png> Mhh.. Can you open a ticket with all relevant bits + the difference screenshot along with a legend and "r.univar -e" output?

tested with the NC sample data set on the same 64bit- win7 box running 32bit and 64bit winGRASS binaries.

GRASS version: 7.0.3RC1 GRASS SVN Revision: 67443 Build Date: 2015-12-31 Build Platform: i386-w64-mingw32 GDAL/OGR: 1.11.3 PROJ.4: 4.9.2 GEOS: 3.5.0 SQLite: 3.7.17 Python: 2.7.4 wxPython: 2.8.12.1 Platform: Windows-7-6.1.7601-SP1 (OSGeo4W) g.region -p -a raster=elevation@PERMANENT align=elevation@PERMANENT projection: 99 (Lambert Conformal Conic) zone: 0 datum: nad83 ellipsoid: a=6378137 es=0.006694380022900787 north: 228500 south: 215000 west: 630000 east: 645000 nsres: 10 ewres: 10 rows: 1350 cols: 1500 cells: 2025000 r.watershed elevation=elevation@PERMANENT accumulation=accum_wg32bit SECTION 1a (of 4): Initiating Memory. SECTION 1b (of 4): Determining Offmap Flow. SECTION 2: A* Search. SECTION 3a: Accumulating Surface Flow with MFD. SECTION 3b: Adjusting drainage directions. SECTION 4: Closing Maps. (Thu Jan 07 11:30:02 2016) Command finished (40 sec) r.univar -e map=accum_wg32bit@watershedtest total null and non-null cells: 2025000 total null cells: 0 Of the non-null cells: ---------------------- n: 2025000 minimum: -638533 maximum: 330838 range: 969371 mean: -262.231 mean of absolute values: 685.177 standard deviation: 13021.3 variance: 1.69554e+008 variation coefficient: -4965.58 % sum: -531016814.625176 1st quartile: 2.03496 median (even number of cells): 4.11548 3rd quartile: 9.49 90th percentile: 34.8313 (Thu Jan 07 11:31:41 2016) Command finished (17 sec)

System Info GRASS version: 7.0.3RC1 GRASS SVN Revision: 67443 Build Date: 2015-12-31 Build Platform: x86_64-w64-mingw32 GDAL/OGR: 1.11.3 PROJ.4: 4.9.2 GEOS: 3.5.0 SQLite: 3.7.17 Python: 2.7.5 wxPython: 2.8.12.1 Platform: Windows-7-6.1.7601-SP1 (OSGeo4W) g.region -p projection: 99 (Lambert Conformal Conic) zone: 0 datum: nad83 ellipsoid: a=6378137 es=0.006694380022900787 north: 228500 south: 215000 west: 630000 east: 645000 nsres: 10 ewres: 10 rows: 1350 cols: 1500 cells: 2025000 r.watershed elevation=elevation@PERMANENT accumulation=accum_wg64bit SECTION 1a (of 4): Initiating Memory. SECTION 1b (of 4): Determining Offmap Flow. SECTION 2: A* Search. SECTION 3a: Accumulating Surface Flow with MFD. SECTION 3b: Adjusting drainage directions. SECTION 4: Closing Maps. (Thu Jan 07 11:38:49 2016) Command finished (4 sec) r.univar -e map=accum_wg64bit@watershedtest total null and non-null cells: 2025000 total null cells: 0 Of the non-null cells: ---------------------- n: 2025000 minimum: -638533 maximum: 330838 range: 969371 mean: -262.231 mean of absolute values: 685.177 standard deviation: 13021.3 variance: 1.69554e+008 variation coefficient: -4965.58 % sum: -531016814.625176 1st quartile: 2.03496 median (even number of cells): 4.11548 3rd quartile: 9.49 90th percentile: 34.8313 (Thu Jan 07 11:39:36 2016) Command finished (6 sec)

r.mapcalc expression=difftestepsilon = if( abs( accum_wg32bit@watershedtest - accum_wg64bit@watershedtest ) <= 1.0e-15 , 1 ,100 )

r.univar -e map=difftestepsilon@watershedtest total null and non-null cells: 2025000 total null cells: 0 Of the non-null cells: ---------------------- n: 2025000 minimum: 1 maximum: 100 range: 99 mean: 32.5001 mean of absolute values: 32.5001 standard deviation: 46.1113 variance: 2126.25 variation coefficient: 141.881 % sum: 65812680 1st quartile: 1 median (even number of cells): 1 3rd quartile: 100 90th percentile: 100

[1] https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/grass-dev/2016-January/078282.html

### Attachments (1)

### Change History (20)

### by , 9 years ago

Attachment: |
difftestepsilon.png
added |
---|

### follow-ups: 2 5 comment:1 by , 9 years ago

Please also add the "r.univar -e ..." output of

r.mapcalc "difftestepsilon_values = if( abs( accum_wg32bit@watershedtest - accum_wg64bit@watershedtest ) <= 1.0e-15 , 1 , accum_wg32bit@watershedtest - accum_wg64bit@watershedtest )"

to see the actual differences and not 100. Thanks.

### follow-up: 3 comment:2 by , 9 years ago

Replying to neteler:

Please also add the "r.univar -e ..." output of

r.mapcalc "difftestepsilon_values = if( abs( accum_wg32bit@watershedtest - accum_wg64bit@watershedtest ) <= 1.0e-15 , 1 , accum_wg32bit@watershedtest - accum_wg64bit@watershedtest )"to see the actual differences and not 100. Thanks.

r.mapcalc expression=difftestepsilon_values = if(abs( accum_wg32bit@watershedtest - accum_wg64bit@watershedtest ) <= 1.0e-15, 1 , accum_wg32bit@watershedtest - accum_wg64bit@watershedtest )

r.univar -e map=difftestepsilon_values@watershedtest total null and non-null cells: 2025000 total null cells: 0 Of the non-null cells: ---------------------- n: 2025000 minimum: -8.14907e-010 maximum: 1 range: 1 mean: 0.681817 mean of absolute values: 0.681817 standard deviation: 0.465771 variance: 0.216942 variation coefficient: 68.3131 % sum: 1380679.99999932 1st quartile: 3.55271e-015 median (even number of cells): 1 3rd quartile: 1 90th percentile: 1

### follow-up: 4 comment:3 by , 9 years ago

Replying to hellik:

r.mapcalc expression=difftestepsilon_values = if(abs( accum_wg32bit@watershedtest - accum_wg64bit@watershedtest ) <= 1.0e-15, 1 , accum_wg32bit@watershedtest - accum_wg64bit@watershedtest )

r.mapcalc expression=difftestepsilon_values2 = if(abs( accum_wg32bit@watershedtest - accum_wg64bit@watershedtest ) <= 1.0e-15, null() , accum_wg32bit@watershedtest - accum_wg64bit@watershedtest )

r.univar -e map=difftestepsilon_values@watershedtest,difftestepsilon_values2@watershedtest total null and non-null cells: 4050000 total null cells: 1380680 Of the non-null cells: ---------------------- n: 2669320 minimum: -8.14907e-010 maximum: 1 range: 1 mean: 0.51724 mean of absolute values: 0.51724 standard deviation: 0.499703 variance: 0.249703 variation coefficient: 96.6094 % sum: 1380679.99999868 1st quartile: -1.77636e-015 median (even number of cells): 1 3rd quartile: 1 90th percentile: 1

### follow-up: 7 comment:4 by , 9 years ago

Replying to hellik:

Replying to hellik:

r.mapcalc expression=difftestepsilon_values = if(abs( accum_wg32bit@watershedtest - accum_wg64bit@watershedtest ) <= 1.0e-15, 1 , accum_wg32bit@watershedtest - accum_wg64bit@watershedtest )r.mapcalc expression=difftestepsilon_values2 = if(abs( accum_wg32bit@watershedtest - accum_wg64bit@watershedtest ) <= 1.0e-15, null() , accum_wg32bit@watershedtest - accum_wg64bit@watershedtest )

r.univar -e map=difftestepsilon_values2@watershedtest total null and non-null cells: 2025000 total null cells: 1380680 Of the non-null cells: ---------------------- n: 644320 minimum: -8.14907e-010 maximum: 4.65661e-010 range: 1.28057e-009 mean: -1.12517e-012 mean of absolute values: 1.73591e-012 standard deviation: 0 variance: 0 variation coefficient: -0 % sum: -7.24971475962732e-007 1st quartile: -3.55271e-015 median (even number of cells): -1.77636e-015 3rd quartile: 3.55271e-015 90th percentile: 1.77636e-014

### follow-up: 6 comment:5 by , 9 years ago

Replying to neteler:

Please also add the "r.univar -e ..." output of

r.mapcalc "difftestepsilon_values = if( abs( accum_wg32bit@watershedtest - accum_wg64bit@watershedtest ) <= 1.0e-15 , 1 , accum_wg32bit@watershedtest - accum_wg64bit@watershedtest )"to see the actual differences and not 100. Thanks.

tested with r.slope.aspect

r.slope.aspect elevation=elevation@PERMANENT slope=slope_wg32bit aspect=aspect_wg32bit r.slope.aspect elevation=elevation@PERMANENT slope=slope_wg64bit aspect=aspect_wg64bit

r.mapcalc expression=diff_slope = slope_wg32bit@slope_test - slope_wg64bit@slope_test r.univar -e map=diff_slope@slope_test total null and non-null cells: 2025000 total null cells: 5696 Of the non-null cells: ---------------------- n: 2019304 minimum: 0 maximum: 0 range: 0 mean: 0 mean of absolute values: 0 standard deviation: 0 variance: 0 variation coefficient: nan % sum: 0 1st quartile: 0 median (even number of cells): 0 3rd quartile: 0 90th percentile: 0

and also tested with r.topidx

r.topidx input=elevation@PERMANENT output=topidx_wg32bit r.topidx input=elevation@PERMANENT output=topidx_wg64bit

r.mapcalc expression=diff_topidx_epsilon = if( abs( topidx_wg32bit@test_topidx - topidx_wg64bit@test_topidx ) <= 1.0e-15 , null() , topidx_wg32bit@test_topidx - topidx_wg64bit@test_topidx )

r.mapcalc expression=diff_topidx_epsilon = if( abs( topidx_wg32bit@test_topidx - topidx_wg64bit@test_topidx ) <= 1.0e-15 , null() , topidx_wg32bit@test_topidx - topidx_wg64bit@test_topidx ) r.univar -e map=diff_topidx_epsilon@test_topidx total null and non-null cells: 2025000 total null cells: 1920831 Of the non-null cells: ---------------------- n: 104169 minimum: -3.55271e-015 maximum: 3.55271e-015 range: 7.10543e-015 mean: -1.67607e-015 mean of absolute values: 1.7849e-015 standard deviation: 0 variance: 0 variation coefficient: -0 % sum: -1.74594561030972e-010 1st quartile: -1.77636e-015 median (odd number of cells): -1.77636e-015 3rd quartile: -1.77636e-015 90th percentile: -1.77636e-015

### comment:6 by , 9 years ago

Replying to hellik:

tested with r.slope.aspect

r.slope.aspect elevation=elevation@PERMANENT slope=slope_wg32bit aspect=aspect_wg32bit r.slope.aspect elevation=elevation@PERMANENT slope=slope_wg64bit aspect=aspect_wg64bitr.mapcalc expression=diff_slope = slope_wg32bit@slope_test - slope_wg64bit@slope_test r.univar -e map=diff_slope@slope_test total null and non-null cells: 2025000 total null cells: 5696 Of the non-null cells: ---------------------- n: 2019304 minimum: 0 maximum: 0 range: 0 mean: 0 mean of absolute values: 0 standard deviation: 0 variance: 0 variation coefficient: nan % sum: 0 1st quartile: 0 median (even number of cells): 0 3rd quartile: 0 90th percentile: 0

r.mapcalc expression=diff_aspect = aspect_wg32bit@slope_test - aspect_wg64bit@slope_test r.univar -e map=diff_aspect@slope_test total null and non-null cells: 2025000 total null cells: 5696 Of the non-null cells: ---------------------- n: 2019304 minimum: 0 maximum: 0 range: 0 mean: 0 mean of absolute values: 0 standard deviation: 0 variance: 0 variation coefficient: nan % sum: 0 1st quartile: 0 median (even number of cells): 0 3rd quartile: 0 90th percentile: 0

### follow-ups: 8 9 comment:7 by , 9 years ago

Replying to hellik: ...

> minimum: -8.14907e-010 > maximum: 4.65661e-010 > range: 1.28057e-009 > mean: -1.12517e-012 > mean of absolute values: 1.73591e-012 > standard deviation: 0 > variance: 0 > variation coefficient: -0 %

Doesn't this qualify for "basically identical results as much as different architectures can achieve"?

Some info pages (for who wants to learn more):

- https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/0b34tf65.aspx
- EPSILON: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/145889
- https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/cc308050(v=vs.85).aspx

I'm not a CPU precision guru but to me it looks ok. Others?

### comment:8 by , 9 years ago

Replying to neteler:

Replying to hellik: ...

> minimum: -8.14907e-010 > maximum: 4.65661e-010 > range: 1.28057e-009 > mean: -1.12517e-012 > mean of absolute values: 1.73591e-012 > standard deviation: 0 > variance: 0 > variation coefficient: -0 %Doesn't this qualify for "basically identical results as much as different architectures can achieve"?

Some info pages (for who wants to learn more):

- https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/0b34tf65.aspx
- EPSILON: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/145889
- https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/cc308050(v=vs.85).aspx
I'm not a CPU precision guru but to me it looks ok. Others?

I'm also no CPU guru. :-)

all these tests with 32bit and 64 bit binaries are done on the same machine. I find it interesting that some calculations are identical between 32 bit and 64 bit (e.g. Slope and aspect), others are not (e.g. accumulation by r.watershed or r.Topic).

though, the diff values are very low and results should be treated as identical?

Maybe adding some notes in the manual (if not already there?)

### follow-up: 12 comment:9 by , 9 years ago

Replying to neteler:

Doesn't this qualify for "basically identical results as much as different architectures can achieve"?

In theory, it should be possible to obtain identical results on any architecture using IEEE-754 floating-point for calculations using only +, -, *, / and sqrt() (no transcendental functions such as sin, cos, log, exp, etc). But that may have a noticeable performance cost (e.g. using -ffloat-store to discard excess precision, forgoing certain optimisations, etc).

Regarding the use of an "epsilon":

- The accuracy of a floating-point value is proportional to its magnitude. For IEEE-754, FLT_EPSILON is ~1.192e-7 while DBL_EPSILON is ~2.22e-16. This represents the difference between 1.0 and the smallest distinct, representable value greater than 1.0.

Consequently, it provides a measure of the worst-case rounding error for values between 1.0 (inclusive) and 2.0 (exclusive). For round-to-nearest, the worst-case rounding error will be plus or minus half that value. For larger or smaller values, the maximum rounding error will be scaled accordingly. I.e. a typical "tolerant comparison" would be along the lines of

if (fabs(a-b) < N * epsilon * max(fabs(a),fabs(b))) ...

- Rounding error occurs at each stage in the computation. The expected absolute error for a complex calculation will be at least the sum of the absolute errors for the individual steps.

- When subtractions are involved, you can't rely upon the absolute error in the result being proportional to the magnitude of the result, as subtracting similar values will produce a result whose magnitude may be much smaller than either of the individual values, but whose absolute error is proportional to that of the individual values.

(A concrete example of that last point is that a single-pass variance calculation using sum-of-squares minus sum-squared can yield a negative value for the variance if the deviations are small relative to the mean).

- Other common cases where the accuracy of the result can be far worse than that of intermediate results or the inputs include finding roots of high-degree polynomials (an extreme example) and acos(x) where x is close to 1.0 (as x tends to 1.0, the derivative of acos(x) tends to infinity while acos(x) itself tends to zero; the first magnifies the absolute error while the second further magnifies the relative error).

### follow-ups: 13 14 comment:12 by , 9 years ago

Replying to glynn:

Replying to neteler:

In theory, it should be possible to obtain identical results on any architecture using IEEE-754 floating-point for calculations using only +, -, *, / and sqrt() (no transcendental functions such as sin, cos, log, exp, etc). But that may have a noticeable performance cost (e.g. using -ffloat-store to discard excess precision, forgoing certain optimisations, etc).

According to the GCC compiler options used for WinGRASS, WinGRASS does not necessarily adhere to IEEE-754 standards, see https://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/FAQ#PR323

The results are thus as precise as requested per GCC compiler options for the given architecture. The same GCC compiler options can lead to different results under different architectures.

Generally, with limited fp precision,

(a * b) / c != a * (b / c)

I tested this with r.watershed and got differences in the range also observed between 32bit and 64bit architectures. The differences between architectures are thus within the expected range of floating-point results. Identical results for different architectures could maybe obtained with gcc -fexcess-precision=standard -std=c99.

In other words, the results obtained with WinGRASS 32bit and WinGRASS 64bit are both correct, even if they differ from each other. The results are as precise as possible / as requested.

### comment:13 by , 9 years ago

Replying to mmetz:

Replying to glynn:

Replying to neteler:

In theory, it should be possible to obtain identical results on any architecture using IEEE-754 floating-point for calculations using only +, -, *, / and sqrt() (no transcendental functions such as sin, cos, log, exp, etc). But that may have a noticeable performance cost (e.g. using -ffloat-store to discard excess precision, forgoing certain optimisations, etc).

According to the GCC compiler options used for WinGRASS, WinGRASS does not necessarily adhere to IEEE-754 standards, see https://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/FAQ#PR323

The results are thus as precise as requested per GCC compiler options for the given architecture. The same GCC compiler options can lead to different results under different architectures.

Generally, with limited fp precision,

(a * b) / c != a * (b / c)

I tested this with r.watershed and got differences in the range also observed between 32bit and 64bit architectures. The differences between architectures are thus within the expected range of floating-point results. Identical results for different architectures could maybe obtained with gcc -fexcess-precision=standard -std=c99.

In other words, the results obtained with WinGRASS 32bit and WinGRASS 64bit are both correct, even if they differ from each other. The results are as precise as possible / as requested.

Identical results for different architectures could maybe

obtained with gcc -fexcess-precision=standard -std=c99.

should this be tested?

### follow-up: 15 comment:14 by , 9 years ago

Replying to mmetz:

The results are thus as precise as requested per GCC compiler options for the given architecture. The same GCC compiler options can lead to different results under different architectures.

There should be some set of options which produce the correct result on any architecture which uses IEEE-754.

Generally, with limited fp precision,

(a * b) / c != a * (b / c)

This shouldn't be relevant. The source code won't change between architectures, and gcc shouldn't perform such approximations unless specifically requested via -ffast-math or similar (apparently -Ofast enables this, but none of the numbered optimisation levels do).

The main issue which occurs with the default options is excess precision. The x87 FPU uses 80 bits by default; you need to use e.g. -ffloat-store or -fexcess-precision=standard to force the result to be rounded to 64 bits. SSE always rounds to 64 bits.

In other words, the results obtained with WinGRASS 32bit and WinGRASS 64bit are both correct, even if they differ from each other. The results are as precise as possible / as requested.

The issue is how you test for correctness. You can either build for deterministic calculation so that exact equality comparisons will work, or you can use a tolerance. The latter option requires case-by-case analysis (see point 4 in comment:9).

### follow-ups: 16 17 comment:15 by , 9 years ago

Replying to glynn:

Replying to mmetz:

There should be some set of options which produce the correct result on any architecture which uses IEEE-754.

Generally, with limited fp precision,

(a * b) / c != a * (b / c)

This shouldn't be relevant. The source code won't change between architectures, and gcc shouldn't perform such approximations unless specifically requested via -ffast-math or similar (apparently -Ofast enables this, but none of the numbered optimisation levels do).

The main issue which occurs with the default options is excess precision. The x87 FPU uses 80 bits by default; you need to use e.g. -ffloat-store or -fexcess-precision=standard to force the result to be rounded to 64 bits. SSE always rounds to 64 bits.

The issue is how you test for correctness. You can either build for deterministic calculation so that exact equality comparisons will work, or you can use a tolerance. The latter option requires case-by-case analysis (see point 4 in comment:9).

some tests shows that some examples in manuals (modules and addons) seems not to work due to this issue in winGRASS 7 64-it.

what what be a usable solution?

### comment:16 by , 9 years ago

Replying to hellik:

some tests shows that some examples in manuals (modules and addons) seems not to work due to this issue in winGRASS 7 64-it.

what what be a usable solution?

Fix the examples.

There are reasons why building for deterministic floating point might be worth the performance cost, but examples relying upon 80-bit intermediate precision isn't such a reason, IMHO.

Can you identify the examples in question? Is it just a case of performing approximate-equality comparisons with too low a tolerance?

### comment:17 by , 8 years ago

Replying to hellik:

some tests shows that some examples in manuals (modules and addons) seems not to work due to this issue in winGRASS 7 64-it.

what what be a usable solution?

For the actual tests as in testsuite, use assertRastersNoDifference with *precision* parameter for comparing the resulting raster to the reference. Also functions like assertRasterFitsInfo have *precision* parameter.

### comment:18 by , 8 years ago

Milestone: | 7.0.4 → 7.0.5 |
---|

### comment:19 by , 8 years ago

Resolution: | → worksforme |
---|---|

Status: | new → closed |

Closing, feel free to reopen if needed.

**Note:**See TracTickets for help on using tickets.

diff epsilon